Despite my flippant, “You Human’s make me laugh” comment, (above), I’m in a rather cheery state of mind at present so will, happily, elaborate on my thoughts and dive into the subject matter a little more. 🙂
The following remains entirely on topic with regards to Hen’s, “Science and Religion. More misunderstandings about creation though, I confess that Jeff and I are focussing on the scientific aspects rather than any religious aspects. Oh, and I found that YouGov related story in The Guardian, not The Observer.
The poll discovered that 72% of Atheists polled thought that religious folk WOULD NOT accept evolutionary science … but they were wrong! In actual fact, only 19% of religious folk rejected Darwinism; meaning that a vast majority of religious folk had no problem acknowledging or accepting evolution as a scientific principle.
Hi Jeff
Answering (or commenting) on your question 1, (relating to my comment, “NATURE does not waste energy … etc”, you asked; “I’m not aware of any such natural law. What’s it called?”
My immediate, knee jerk reaction might have been to remind folk in general, (or Jeff in particular), that not all natural phenomena experienced by humans even has a law … but I resisted hanging my flag on that premise.
Rather; When I stated, “NATURE doesn’t waste energy (or resources) by producing/manifesting “stuff” unless or until it is required”, I was referring to “the building blocks” of matter (and existence – as far as we can know of it), based on the foundations of quantum theory. Meaning; that while we might ponder objects like the Moon, (or other large components visible in our human sight), nevertheless, all that observable stuff is only manifest thanks to the quantum components and forces that bring such objects into being from such a quantum state.
That quantum state being just one or more POTENTIAL POSSIBILITIES that, themselves, stay an unrealised unknowable possibility until some particular action, (or observation) forces them into existence. (That’s one, fundamental, principle of quantum physics as far as I am aware).
In that sense, while our own universe does not function in the manner representing your 87 giant cockroaches that came into being to create the universe, (their universe), that cockroach universe you talk of DOES exist, (along with every other permutation of universes any of us could ever think of), BUT we will never see, experience or know of that 87 cockroach universe, (or any other universe, (potential or real), because we, as humans are living in THIS universe.
I’m not smoking any of WonderousHen’s waccy baccy. I’m, rather, referring to the cutting edge of science that is not only embracing the MULTIVERSE theory but also finding, tentative, evidence that other universes, (close or insode our own), may account for some of the weird effects we see out there in the depths of space!
As to nature being wasteful in producing the material it produces, e.g. sperm, eggs, animals, plants, stars, galaxies you highlight, nevertheless, those “objects” only come into being when required. (By the act of procreation, galactic alchemy and/or existing forces created, (when needed), in previous manifestations of nature bringing matter into existence as a result of previous interactions.
That’s my comment, (answer), regarding Jeff’s first question to me. 🙂
INTERMISSION
Fun facts regarding religion, reality and how we see our universe.
My hero and personal role model, Socrates, is, (I’d argue), one of the coolest, most profound thinkers that this particular universe has ever produced. (He’s in my top three Heroes of History, alongside Newton and Tesla).
2,500 years ago, in ancient Greece, “Religion” took the form of assuming that “The Gods” were in control of EVERYTHING! (The weather, apocalyptic disasters, the fate of men … and the governing, often by fear or threat of severe supernatural repercussions, of the whole, known, world).
And Socrates, a particularly ugly, overweight, but charismatic individual, was a man who viewed the world in a particularly profound way …
In a manner that my online persona “Beach” chooses to emulate in, just about, every post, Socrates would raise a topic of conversation by means of a question, (offering an even handed pre-amble to prime a debate), before inviting others to pontificate upon said question … with the main aim of probing, examining or teasing the MEANING out of whatever assumption or dictate was offered by the company he shared.
He rarely presented a question by offering his own particular view up front, preferring to allow others to offer their thoughts, (or presumed perspective), before ever even making further comment though once a particular theme was being discussed, Socrates would drill right down into a person’s point of view, inviting them to explain the meaning of a word they were using, a thought they wer expressing … or by highlighting some flaw or feature of an observation that needed clarification or expansion.
That philosophy/reasoning would go on to become the foundations Western thought would, one day, adopt entirely but, back then, in 500 BC, the very idea that, (for example), a failed harvest could be explained by changes to some natural weather event, rather than being the “Will of the Gods”, put Socrates on a very sticky wicket.
Socrates was daring to suggest, (amongst other things), that natural, meteorological, events, (rather than the Will of the Gods), might explain why a crop had failed … A revolutionary idea that, back then in ancient Greece, was perceived as nothing short of heresy!
Beach, my online persona, often gets that same response, even now, whenever he dares to question the status quo of any social media site, (whether it is friendship, electric bike, robotics or whatever based) … as well as in real life occasionally …
My point being …There are instances, occasions and moments when swimming against the tide of accepted/established thought cause the hackles of any majority to rise up in indignation.
Back then, 2,500 years ago, Socrates could not offer evidence or proof for the philosophical outlooks he promoted … yet they have become the actual mental software and mode of operation that billions of human beings now view their place in the world.
Socrates was sentenced to death … for holding a view of the world that you and I now take for granted.
Answer to the second of Jeff’s questions.
My actual answer is short and sweet but that would be a waste of a page of text, (and lack the mental stimulation I, characteristically, like to invest in a post), so … you’re going to get a long Beachy answer instead! 🙂
Jeff, weirdly, didn’t directly answer any of my own carefully crafted words. Rather, he asked about “Leaves blowing around near walls” and “pots of paint rolling around” ???!!!
Anyway. I had used video compression as an analogy for the way we humans perceive our world and had stated that algorithms, (mathematical recalculations of video file data), cleverly compresses the information in a big video file to enable such data to be reduced in size without impacting on the general visual quality of said file.
I was making the point that we humans COMPUTE and STORE enough information about what is “in front of us” to enable us to navigate in our 3 dimensional world and I inferred that, possibly, (due to the fact that EVERYTHING we think we experience in “real life” actually takes place as an electro – biological RENDERING processed INSIDE the brain in our human skull), the whole experience we regard as REALITY could, likely, be a complete, manufactured ILLUSION.
I mean, seriously … hold your hand out in front of you right now. You see it, don’t you but … what exactly is going on?
The image, the vision, the animated presentation of the hand you see “out there” in the space you assume as reality… RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU? … is actually being processed/created in THE VISUAL CORTEX, just above the nape of your neck at the very back of the brain.
If you accept the premise that what you are experiencing is an illusion, (which you have to – because that is the way vision is processed), then you have to acknowledge that there could actually be NOTHING out there in front of what you perceive as being “your world”.
And just as a sophisticated 3D “first person” shooter game delivers an environment “on demand”, (by streaming in the data that is required to paint the illusion of some expansive gaming world), we have no guarantee that what we see is even real at all.
Even if it were, there is another fascinating thing regarding the way humans make up their world.
All of us actually view our reality using a ‘shorthand’ means of navigation.
Sure. The first time we explore a new venue, we SOAK UP all the visual data and feel a sense of exploratory wonder BUT, after a few times of visiting the same location, our brains burn in pre-recorded images that we use over and over again … without requiring the visual processing of the first visit. eg. When we are walking around a favoured supermarket, we are in “standby mode’, now aware of the layout, without needing to“see it” in the detail we may have required on the first visit. In that sense, we use efficient VISUAL MEMORY to navigate … in a compressed, efficient way, just like we compress our video files!
Jeff asked, “So if leaves are being blown around near a wall, is that wall actually staying in the past or it is refreshed in the present?”
You miss the point, Jeff. TIME is part of the illusion. Possibly the biggest illusion of all. :
TIME, (or our concept of it), is, possibly, the most bewitching and mysterious concepts we humans have ever pondered … or invented!
I mean; Does a daffodil need a wristwatch or calendar to decide when to poke its little head up out of the soil? Does a bird need an alarm clock to wake it up for a dawn chorus? Do stars and galaxies rely on some universal metronome to maintain their eternal orbits in the heavens?
They don’t, do they?
Like religion, my tenuous link to Hen’s O.P, (sheepish grin), TIME is a concept that the rest of the flora and fauna on this earth has done without, certainly as a tangible, real world device to manipulate … though some animals can count!
There is a myth that Einstein once said, “Time stops everything happening at once” but that phrase, likely, came from a quote in Ray Cummings’ short story The Time Professor, published in 1921. (Truth is, such a quote has been attributed to many great thinkers).
But why is that?
Is it because, even in a 21st century where the concept of segmented moments can, indeed, be used as a tool to compute an approximation of how the universe, supposedly, works, we still don’t actually know if it is anything other than a human construct?
A clever concept for humans to manipulate … but is it really a phenomenon that actually exists in nature? And does a nature without mankind/womankind require TIME to function?
I ask these questions in light of the way we, as a species, use such tools to make some approximation of the world we perceive BUT I wonder, also, how much of our approximation of reality even matches the terrifying true nature of existence.
Yes. I’m leaving Hen’s original post, (regarding atheists perceptions of religious folk), in my wake BUT, surely, the ideas of what we think are present, (and happening), in the world VERSUS what actually is happening in the world, is all part of a scary 21st century where EVERYTHING, in all aspects of humanity/society, is coming under question.
My own perception of time?
I believe that EVERYTHING, (knowable and unknowable), lies on some UNIVERSAL SPINNING PLATTER, (like a hard drive or a vinyl record), where, quantum theory style, every single permutation of every single event that has happened or could ever happen, (to the nth degree), has ALREADY been laid down and “burned to disk”. Human words might translate to FATE, DESTINY or PREDETERMINATION.
In the days of the CD player and the classic music album, any of us could, either, listen to a series of linear audio tracks from start to finish OR, by pressing a button, skip tracks … moving into the future or past of an album, according to our whim or desire.
I think the whole history of existence, (past/present/future) has, somehow, already been laid down and I think TIME, therefore, is not a human, linear thing, but, (only), our way of comprehending parts of that , already burned, already recreated complete structure.
Addressing question 3, Jeff.
You asked; “Do you think that if people see an open tin of paint rolling down a hill, then everybody looks away for a seconds so it all disappears into thin air, and a few seconds later someone looks again in that direction, then it is all suddenly recreated complete with appropriate paint marks on the road?
Ha ha. That would be funny … IF … events happened exactly as you stated. But that isn’t what I said at all.
Lets pause while I relish an opportunity to use your incorrect evaluation of perceived events to highlight exactly why a “Beach” theory of nature, (or whatever) is so efficient in ONLY painting in “the bits” that need to be updated. 🙂 No pun intended on using the word “painting”.
And to avoid us going down further rabbit holes, I’d ask that we call the events I surmise as some “quantum act of nature”. That’s nature in some quantum form, not nature as in fluffy bunnies and daffodils. Bear in mind that, in other universes, different versions of nature or laws of physics might work on entirely different principles.
In order to discuss the quirky, mysterious nature of our universe, it is best to appreciate that our laws of nature, physics and quantum theory only apply to us. (Though other universes and laws of physics are available) 🙂
Anyway. We need to edit your perceived understanding of what I wrote and then what I claim nature would be manifesting in such a scenario though this is fun and your misunderstanding of my ‘quantum theory’ theory of events allows me to expand on what I have already expressed. 🙂
The error you may have made in relating your conception of what I call a, “just in time” deliver of reality, (where only what is visible in front of an observer needs be manifest), is your use of the words “people” and “everybody”.
People and everybody is not you. They are manifesting their own, similar, recreation of reality. (Entirely bespoke and unique to them).
When I originally stated that REALITY might only exist, (to an observer), as a construct created “before their eyes”, I was suggesting that nature would, efficiently, only present the data required to process their own, unique view of the world. Nature would not waste resources painting in any reality not required.
With that fundamental fact established, (from my point of view or observation), there is NO NEED to consider or pencil in any other observers point of view so your premise that “other people” or “everybody” might see this or see that remains no more than a thought experiment of potential possibilities … irrelevant to a lone observer viewing their electrochemical expression of their world.
But yes, sure. On returning to some scene of any perceived version of reality, anyone might well witness one of a zillion potential scenes involving a pot of paint rolling down a hill, complete with paint marks on the road.
Whether REALITY remains a lonely premise or some entangled, mutual network, we remain lone observers of this thing we describe as LIFE.
And as the old woman in the Donny Darko movie said, “When we die, we die alone”
“And relax …”
A CLICK OF THE FINGERS
“OK, Beach … You’re back in the room!”
(Pause)
Phew. Thank goodness …
I’m glad that’s all over.”